USS Liberty

[nohil-billy]

Did I say doddering Herb? Maybe I meant addled!!! What Book???

The only book mentioned in this thread is the one by A. Jay Cristol who calls the attack an accident and exonerates the Israelis. Who was A Jay Cristol? Certainly not one of those socialist miscreants who write for the liberal rags that Herb likes to quote. Judge for yourselves:

A. Jay Cristol joined the US Navy as an aviation cadet in November 1951. He earned his Navy Wings of Gold in April 1953. During the Korean conflict, he was part of an AF squadron stationed aboard the aircraft carrier Princeton (CV-37) in the South China Sea. He flew day and night missions as both a hunter pilot and a killer pilot. He was subsequently attached to the Fleet All Weather Training Unit, Pacific at San Diego, California as an instrument flight instructor and taught maneuvers for the delivery of nuclear weapons. Upon returning to civilian life, Cristol joined the Naval Air Reserve where he qualified as a four-engine Navy transport plane commander. In the 1960’s he flew operational flights during the Cuban Missile Crises and volunteer airlift missions to Vietnam. After 18 years as a Naval aviator, Cristol joined the Judge Advocate General’s Corps. He graduated with distinction form Naval Justice School. He served as a lawyer for another twenty years. His duties included teaching law of war and serving as the administrative officer for the summer Naval Reserve law courses. In 1983, he was made an honorary professor by the Naval Justice School. He has performed special active duty in the office of the Secretary of the Navy and the Chief of Naval Operations. In the 1980’s, the department of Defense sent him to the International Institute of Humanitarian Law at San Remo, Italy to lecture on Law of Naval warfare to senior foreign military officers. Captain Cristol retired in 1988. He wears more than a dozen military decorations including the Meritorious Service Medal, The Navy Commendation Medal, and the Navy Achievement Medal. In civilian life, Cristol became a lawyer and practiced civil law. He served as Special Assistant Attorney General of Florida during the 1959, 1961, 1963, and 1965 sessions of the Florida Legislature. In 1985, after 25 years of law practice, he left his position as senior partner in a firm he founded to accept an appointment to the federal bench. He continues to serve as Chief Judge Emeritus in the Southern District of Florida. He is also an adjunct professor, teaching at the University of Miami School of Law. An interest in international terrorism led him to enroll in the Graduate School of International Studies of the University of Miami where he researched and wrote on terrorism. Because of his background as a navy pilot, a navy lawyer (JAG), lecturer in law of naval warfare, a civil lawyer, and a federal judge, members of the faculty encouraged him to research and write about the Liberty incident. He spent ten years researching the subject and was awarded a Ph.D. by the University of Miami Graduate School of International Studies. His collection of research material on this subject is considered to be the larges and most complete of any collection on the subject in the entire world. After completing his dissertation, he obtained declassification of additional heretofore secret documents through many Freedom of Information Act requests and appeals. His book, The Liberty Incident, was written to update and complete the historical record. He has written numerous articles on law, aviation, history, and other subjects. Judge Cristol remains an avid aviator. He made his first flight in a Piper J-3 on Biscayne Bay in 1945. He has personally piloted a Ford Tri-Motor, the Goodyear Blimp, a Soviet MiG-15, and many other unique, antique, or historic aircraft. In 1998, he became one of the few persons to have an airplane named after him when Pan Am named one of their 727 aircraft the Clipper A. Jay Cristol. He is a founding member of the National Museum of Naval Aviation at the Naval Air Station Classic Aircraft Museum in Miami, Florida.

We will now pause for Herb to catch his breath, take his blood pressure, and adjust his medication. More to follow shortly.

[nohil-billy]

Now just because there is no book mentioned in this thread that supports Herb's position, and just because nobody mentioned in this thread has served aboard the USS Liberty as Herb contends, it does not mean that Herb is a liar. It just means that he's making a strong case for addled. I'm sure that Admiral Moorer (mentioned in Post #10) wrote that forward for somebody's book.

But let's get back to A. Jay Cristol. With the exception of Herb, I think anybody can see that the man was a decorated Navy pilot who had distinguished careers both in and after the service. He was encouraged to write about the USS Liberty by his fellow faculty members at the University of Miami because of his background. (No fish to fry here, huh Herb!)

I tried to find a biography for Ward Boston Jr. but could only find stories about him rebutting the accounts of the Liberty incident after A. Jay Cristol's book was published. What I did find though, was a rebuttal to Ward Boston's rebuttal by A. Jay Cristol which refutes the charges in Ward Boston's declaration as unfounded, without merit, and lacking in substantive proof. It's rather lenghthy but worth the read.


[LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This No Hillary For President Forum Link.



Again, more to follow.

[nohil-billy]

A. Jay Cristol carefully researched the events that lead up to the attack on the USS Liberty. He concluded, as did the U.S. Government, that the attack was an accident. If anybody cares to Google "The USS Liberty Incident" (I will include a link at the end of this posting) you will find that mistakes were made by both sides, and that unless you have an agenda, you could not come to the conclusion that Israel purposely attacked the USS Liberty.

It is my opinion that Ward Boston Jr, the man who investigated the USS Liberty incident in 1967, was a patriotic American who let loyalty to his country cloud his objectivity. Though his opinion of the incident was over-ruled, he allowed it to eat at him for years. That is only my opinion.

USS Liberty incident

[Herb Schaffler]

Regarding A. Jay Cristol, I don't care how much military credentials he has, he has a reputation of being a shill for Israel. Here is a quote from a reviewer at Amazon:

"Cristol has already been discredited. Cristol is the most quoted pro-Israel Liberty apologist, as demonstrated by the ADL ... Cristol lies even before the reader has a chance to open his book, though. Cristol's front book cover contains what Cristol purports is an Israeli gun camera photo. After a photo analysis was done for the Liberty survivors, though, that cover photo was discovered to be a doctored picture of the ship while it was docked in Little Creek VA. Just go to the Liberty survivor's website and you will see the evidence, or you can google "photo fraud liberty". Cristol has been discredited, so now the next hope for Israeli apologists is Michael Oren(who is an entirely new bag of worms)."

The book that I'm reading is "Assault on the Liberty" by James M. Ennes, Jr. who was an officer aboard the Liberty and experienced the attack first hand.

Here is a review of Cristol's book:

Cristol is the most quoted Liberty Israeli apologist..., April 12, 2006
By William A. Heimiller (Las Vegas, NV) - [LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This No Hillary For President Forum Link.

This review is from: [LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This No Hillary For President Forum Link.
Even if you want to believe it to be an accident, you can do better than this book. Cristol created this book based on his doctoral dissertation, which was manufactured after (and some estimate to obfuscate and diffuse) Dr. John Borne's initial doctoral dissertation on the Liberty assault which came to the conclusion Israel knew it was a US ship before they attacked.

You don't even need to open the book to know what's inside!...let's take a look at the front cover photo...
The photo, claimed in the book to be provided to Cristol by the Israeli Air Force, as a gun camera photo, shows the USS Liberty flying no flag as it is attacked, with even a large splash of munition next to it. This of course reinforces Israel's claim there was no flag flying during the attack, which would then debunk the survivors' claim they had an American flag flying(and put up an even larger US flag after the first was shot down!).
-It turns out, according to a photo analysis done for the Liberty survivors' website, this "is in fact a doctored view of the ship just as she tied up at the pier at Little Creek, Virginia, in July, 1967, upon her return from repairs in Malta." The photo evidence is too much to list but here is some of it: All the vectors and even people on the ship correspond to the Little Creek dock photo. The smoke was apparently falsified - there is no smoke or fire damage in corresponding areas of the ship, in photos taken immediately after the attack. The displacement(how deep in the water the ship sets due to weight) of the Liberty during the actual attack was much greater than the Cristol image depicted, but corresponded perfectly with the Little Creek photo (after the ship was offloaded). The munition splash apparently was added to cover a tug boat that occluded a small part of the front side of the Liberty. A photo of a real wake created by the Liberty does not correspond to what was apparently a post photo wake added to the photo of the stationary Liberty. Etcetera, etcetera. Of course, the fact that there is no flag in Cristol's cover picture corresponds to the fact it is customary to take down the flag once you get into port, as the real Little Creek photo shows. So there you have it, no need to even open this book. Sorry to say, the photo was presented as evidence in a Thames television presentation before a proper analysis and debunking was done.

This is the second book(the other is the unrelated "Hitler's Pope" by Cornwell) I've reviewed where a photo was presented as evidence, but was apparently otherwise.

If you are an Israeli apologist and want to give a better try than Cristol's book, it's not hard. But you should at least go to the survivors' website and get firsthand information so you don't look as foolish as Cristol. Now that Cristol is being dismissed, Michael Oren is the next big hope for Israeli apologists concerning Liberty. This assault is so dangerous to Israel's reputation that apologists consistently offer terminology that attempts to stop discussion on the subject rather than address concerns, such as the title of Michael Oren's writing's "USS Liberty: Case Closed". The process is consistent, first the apologist (Oren/Cristol/whoever) offers what they claim is a thorough discussion-ending report(in Oren's case even titling it as such), then the apologist goes on with a typical limited and contextually false account, then right on queue, the apologist is soon after applauded for such a "conclusive", "thorough", "definitive" account. Then eventually the apologist is dismissed by those on the other side as false after having his material reviewed, such as Cristol eventually was. Then another apologist takes over the reigns as 'lead USS Liberty reference' for the apologists, conveniently forgetting they were just supporting the last guy who who offered false claims. To some, it might seem strange Oren was given the top prize at the LA book fair for what was a rehashing the 1967 Israeli six day war in his book "Six Days of War". What Oren did conveniently offer in his newly awarded book, just as Crystol conveniently offered, was, once again, "new evidence" that the attack on the Liberty was accidental. Of course, "Body of Secrets" author James Bamford eventually took great exception to Oren's selective Liberty account, and offers insight into Oren's personal history and his close working connections to those who apparently were connected to Israeli war crimes that the Liberty would have monitored, and that, as Bamford suggests, would have been reason to snuff out the Liberty's surveillance.

The real story, and the amazing and intriguing evidence that is now coming out is mostly coming from NSA sources. The Anti-Defamation League primarily references Cristol and NSA transcripts released in 1999 of helicopter pilots sent to the Liberty after the attack. Of course, the ADL pointing to the helicopter transmissions is misleading, as the unreleased plane and boat transmissions(those taking part in the attacks) are the relevant ones. Of course the ADL doesn't address Cristol's basic problems, such as that silly cover photo passed off as an Israeli gun camera photo. Some amazing admissions have occured just recently(after 2000). There is still apparently a key NSA record of the attack, taken from a an NSA spyplane in the area of the attack, that is being withheld.

"Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate." - Naval Institute Proceedings

"That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency" - former NSA director William Odom, 3 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

Write a letter to your Congressman and sign the Liberty petition, if you want the NSA record released!!

[Herb Schaffler]

OPEN LETTER TO THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS BY THE SURVIVORS OF THE USS LIBERTY

December 26, 2007 — crescentandcross
I have been writing letters to our elected officials for the past 20 years, trying to get a congressional investigation into the deliberate attack on the USS LIBERTY on June 8, 1967 by the government of Israel. This atrocity and cold-blooded murder of America’s sons on the high seas was an act of war against the United States of America, not to mention the numerous war crimes committed against the crew of the USS LIBERTY.
Being that this is America where there exists at least a small shred of freedom, including freedom of speech and the right of redress to our government, let me speak to you then like an American, and as you read this, remember something, you asked for it. A great man once said ‘What you sow also shall you reap,’ and with that in mind what you are about to hear from me–which mirrors the thoughts and feelings of not only my fellow crew members but also a good portion of the American people, is a badge that you have earned by your own actions, so wear it with pride.
You, our elected officials, are in truth nothing but a bunch of stooges and front men for the government of Israel. Whatever Israel wants, Israel gets, no matter what. If you don’t follow their every want and need you won’t be in congress very long and you ######-well know it. The power the Israeli Lobby has over you is only slightly less sickening than what is your willingness to bow to their every ###### demand. You are as guilty of murdering my shipmates as the Israelis are. You have their blood on your hands because you continue to cover up the truth concerning what happened to them. In a better time in America’s history, that would be considered treason, every bit as much as Benedict Arnold attempting to turn over West Point to the British during our own war for freedom. Were you ordinary people and not members of the US Congress your crimes would be considered accessory to murder and you would be put away for life.
You took an oath to protect and serve and honor the Constitution of the United States, not to serve Israel, and yet you serve the Jewish state rather than your own nation and even when you know it’s wrong. They are your masters and always will be until you get some backbone and say ‘enough already’.
The USS LIBERTY Veterans Association wants a Congressional investigation so that we–the survivors of the nearly-2-hour attack–can be questioned in an open and fair hearing. If an American ship were attacked by any other country, and especially by one of those other Middle Eastern countries that are on Israel’s hit-list, you know full-well that there would be investigations coming out our ears to the point where no other business in Congress would be taking place. Is this–a proper investigation into an act of war perpetrated against the people of the United States–to ask of our elected members of Congress who swore an oath of loyalty to the US by combat wounded veterans who swore an oath to protect and serve this country? Many gave their lives doing just that.
But we know what is really going on here, don’t we now, Mr. or Mz. Congressperson? We all know why a proper investigation cannot be allowed to take place, which is that the truth will overcome the mountain of lies that Israel has vomited out these 40 years about the attack being a case of ‘mistaken identity’, and we all know what would happen once the American people found out the truth, which is that Israel would be cut off from Uncle Sam’s generous bank account, or worse.
The last letter I got from my senator, Ken Salazar, on Nov. 27,2007 states as follows:

“Dear Phil,
Thank you for your letter regarding the 1967 attack on the U.S.S. Liberty. I appreciate hearing from you.
Multiple investigations have concluded that the Israeli forces who attacked the ship mistook it for an Egyptian vessel. The Israeli and U.S. governments closed the case in 1987, and the Israeli government has paid more that $13 million in reparations.
At this time, I do not think an additional investigation is necessary.
Again, thank you for writing.
Sincerely,
Ken Salazar
United States Senator

This was the standard form letter all of you send out to the survivors and the public. In fact, there has been only one investigation through the Board of Inquiry, which was a sham and cover-up for Israel. Look in the congressional record, senator, and show me where and when all of these ‘investigations’ took place. You can’t, and for one simple reason–THERE NEVER HAS BEEN ANY, NOT ONE. What you wrote me was a bold face lie and what that makes you sir is a liar, despite your undeserved title of ‘Honorable’. The proof of this is that a letter was sent from the Department of the Navy in response to an inquiry by Congressman Robert Simmons from Connecticut. His inquiry was made on March 16, 2005 and it clearly states that the Navy’s 5-day sham investigation is the ONLY investigation ever made by the U.S. Government, period! Check with your colleague for verification. One of the men who signed off on the Board of Inquiry, Captain Ward Boston, has recently come forward and said the Board of Inquiry was a lie which he was ordered to produce. That order came from none other than Admiral John S. McCain, Jr, Senator McCain’s father and the inquiry that should have lasted at least 6 months by Navy standards took less than ten days.
The money Israel paid our government for the attack was given to them by the U.S. Israel was out nothing, not one a dime. The ship alone was worth $40 million, for God’s sake. Don’t you think that this alone is proof of the US being short-changed? But then, this is what always happens when you deal with Israel, and what we don’t give her willingly she steals by spying. Case in point, Jonathan Pollard, and who knows how many others.
By the way, Senator Salazar, in your letter you did not even mention a word about the men murdered that day or the wounded, nor did you say a kind word to their families for the heartaches they have endured these last 40 years. That in itself is disgusting and disrespectful towards the men and women who wear the uniform of the U.S. military. Shame on you. You won’t honor our fallen heroes, you could care less. I can say one thing for certain though, which is that had you been there that day and experienced what we experienced or had you lost a son or brother as a result of ‘our friend’ Israel, you would not be so quick to give her a clean bill of health.
To all of you in Congress, once the American public finds out that you have been covering up for the government of Israel and our government, you will all be looking for new jobs, and that is putting it mildly. Nobody wants a bunch of flunkies and liars working for them and never before in the history of any nation have there been as many flunkies and liars than the US Congress today.
ANALYSIS
TRAITORS, COWARDS AND A “PARLIMENT OF WHORES”*
What better words define and describe the disloyal and treasonous government officials, who on June 8, 1967 allowed over 200 American sailors on the unarmed U.S.S. Liberty to be murdered and wounded in broad daylight in international waters in what was a deliberate attack by Israeli aircraft and torpedo boats? Incredibly, these same subservient public officials, apparently owing their allegiance to a foreign entity, collaborated to protect a guilty Israel from public condemnation and punishment by manipulating and relegating the bloody massacre into a political black hole for four decades.
TRAITORS
President Lyndon B. Johnson and Sec of Defense Robert McNamara qualified as co-perpetrators in treason by ordering and executing the pull back of American aircraft responding to desperate calls from the helpless Liberty crew, and permitting the massacre to continue. Finally, the co-conspirators initiated and orchestrated a criminal cover up that remains in place to this day.
COWARDS
Every one of the faceless, gutless government officials and bureaucrats who know the truth and dare not to act or speak out.
“PARLIMENT OF WHORES”*
*(Patrick J. Buchanan’s incisive characterization of Congress’s servile sellout relationship with Israel.)
To date Congress has fearfully evaded and defaulted on its oversight responsibility to conduct an independent and open investigation to expose the truth of the deliberate and unprovoked attack on the U.S.S. Liberty by Israel. In fact, no investigation has ever been held at any level of government to investigate the Israeli treachery. Israeli political actions committees paid off and threatened members of Congress well for the pass - approximately $3,300,000.00 in the latest 2005-2006 election cycle, and over $50,000,000.00 since 1978. Of course a grateful Congress has reciprocated, having given lavishly to the Mideast mini state over $100,000,000,000.00 of U.S. taxpayers’ money. A return on investment that would put Warren Buffet to shame. Enough!
Allow the words of a few others finish this letter–“If American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, their American friends would let them get away with almost anything”–George Ball, Assistant Secretary of State, 1967
“The nation which indulges toward another… is in some degree a slave….a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils.”–President George Washington farewell address, Sept.17, 1796
“Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken on faith the word of their attackers.”–Dr. Richard Kiepfer, Capt. USN ret. and USS Liberty survivor
Phillip F. Tourney, survivor of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty and contributing editor to American Free Press newspaper
[LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This No Hillary For President Forum Link.

[nohil-billy]

OK Herb , I looked at the photos. To be honest with you, I don't see any of the discrepancies they're talking about even though they're circled and highlighted. As a matter of fact Herb, I've seen clearer photos of "Bigfoot" and "Nessie."

And who the hell is William A. Heimiller? (Sounds German) I Googled for a biography (as I do with all the authors of left wing fanatasizm that you post) and found none. As far as I can tell, he does book reviews for Amazon.com, along with about a thousand other people who came up with cutesy user names and can remember their passwords. Does he have any credentials beyond these?

You said you don't care about the credentials of A. Jay Cristol, which are impeccable, which leads me to believe that you really don't care about the credentials of your sources, as long as their beliefs fit your agenda.

Let me clue you in on a few realities Herb. These aren't from books or off of the internet, but from personal experience:

At any given moment on a ship at sea, there are about three people assigned to topside duties. (These are duties performed outside) They are the "Forward Watch" the "Aft Watch" and the duty Signalman. In war time or in a war zone, add one or two people, (I'm not sure of this as my only duty in a "hot area" was a stint in the Indian Ocean during the Iranian Hostage Crises back in '79/80.) but it could be more. The only other people with any sight of topside happenings would be those on the bridge which consist of: an OOD (Officer of the Deck), a Junior OOD, a helmsman, a guy who stands next to the helmsman and repeats orders given by the OOD to the boiler room, (I forget what he's called, forgive me, it's been 30 years), a Quartermaster, a Boatswains Mate of the Watch, a Messenger of the Watch (Gofer) and anybody else who's hanging out topside to get some air or smoke a joint. You could pass ships at sea all day long and hardly see anybody.

Being an intelligence gathering vessel in the Middle East in a war zone, my guess would be that most , if not all, of the personnel would have been on Port and Starboard duty which means they stood 6, 8, or 12 hour watches, ate, and then went to bed for 6, 8, or 12 hours.. In a nutshell Herb, not only did very few people witness the attack, but it was probably over before a lion's share of the crew was completely awake. And remember Herb, this ship was not a Man o' War but an AGI (Intelligence Gathering Auxilliary) whose movements, for the most part, were Top Secret. Hence the United States never acknowledged that the USS Liberty was in the area.

What I'm saying Herb, is that very few people actually witnessed the attack. You're reading a book by James M. Ennes who was an officer on the Liberty. What was he? Operations Officer? Engineering Officer? Supply? Chaplain? Your post doesn't say. I saw a book review that describes him as an officer on the bridge. Doing what? OOD? JOOD? Was he even on watch or was that his GQ station? Was he there when the attack originated or was he awaken out of a sound sleep and reported to the bridge during or after the attack.

You see Herb, you want to make accusations on the credibility of one side only. I've tried looking for Bio's of the people you site in these posts and have been unable to find any. I found one for A. Jay Cristol, but you say he's been discredited. How? He discredited all points made by Ward Boston and I haven't seen you prove otherwise.

What this has been all about Herb is that you are willing to dredge up a 41 year old incident and make bogus accusations against a loyal ally, citing questionable sources, to justify the anti-semitic ramblings of the closest associates of your boy Barack Obama. It's that simple and you should be ashamed of your own lack of credibility. You don't appreciate being called a liar? give me another noun or adjectve and I'll use it.

By the way, I'm still waiting for your response regarding all the liberties we lost due to the Patriot Act and the ensuing mass arrests that followed. You prevaricator you.

[Herb Schaffler]

The author of the book was the Officer On Deck. He saw the 6 x 9 flag flying at full profile and it was a clear day. He believed that if he could see the faces of the pilots, they could have surely been able to make out the flag and that it was American.

Here is another reason why Cristol's book is of questionable authority according to another reviewer of Cristol's book:

"The author fails to interview more than 1/4 of the survivors of the actual incident. That's a very L.B. Johnsonesque manuever: Obfuscate with "facts" from impartial sources (not the actual victims of the incident of course, they're too "emotional and biased" hence their thoughts are meaningless). Non-partial sources such as Israeli military personnel and top brass will give a non-political, no bs, view of course. It's not like they're worried about promotion or anything! Isn't odd though that LBJ didn't pin Commander McGonagle's Medal of Honor on the White House lawn? It's not like it's an important event, but at least give the guy a break!"

And another one:

" Judge Cristal's book is and has become just the continuing written resource of the "official version". He was a bankruptcy judge, a naval reserve officer who never saw combat, was never there, avoided the survivor's versions of events if it doesn't mesh with the "accident" thesis. He is held in deep disregard by the Liberty Veterans Organization, they are all wrong yet his version is correct. They were there, he was not."
"What it doesn't say and what it avoids is as important as what he does says. He has avoided any debate whatsoever with any member of the Liberty Veterans Organization but now spends his time answering op-ed pieces proclaiming the "case is closed". His book is a part of the Liberty canon and it does demostrate the extremes that the Liberty opponents have taken over the last 40 years. The question still remains "why?". If it was a "friendly fire" so-called accident. Why oppose the Liberty crew the first open honest day in an open manner? Like Ennes say, if they are lying, they go to jail but they are willing to take the chance."


"But a bankruptcy judge who was never there, never a part of the investigation and and who has been condemned by the very limited number of Liberty crew he sought information and who deny "his version" of he claims does not make this a reliable resource. You want the truth, read Jim Ennnes' book, "Assault on the Liberty". He was there and no one has ever called his book disingenuous or fabricated."

"There are two sides to every story and the good Judge has no monopoly on the truth. Certainly not the "Liberty Incident". BTW an "Attack" is hardly an "Incident" when 34 crew members were killed and 174 wounded. What's next "The 9-11 Incident"? Decide for yourself. Buy it used ."

And another:

"I find it very telling Judge Cristol included so few photographs of the damage to the Liberty. They clearly show most of it, with the exception of the torpedo hit, was inflicted by rocket fire from the planes. The use of rockets in the attack is officially denied by Israel. Why? Because most of the superstructure and much of the hull took scores of hits from almost every conceivable angle. Many of them penetrating several bulkheads. The ship looked like an angry grizzly bear got to chewing on a steel bucket. Such extensive damage clearly refutes Israeli claims the air attack involved only 4 aircraft and a maximum of 6 strafing runs over 12-14 minutes. It does support survivor's statements that dozens of strafing runs were made over 25 or more minutes. These facts alone should cause any reasonable person to very seriously doubt the "accident" explanation for the attack. Consider also this. The aircraft flying at a typical cruising speed of 500mph would have burned about 10gal/min of fuel. In 25 minutes they would have each used 1,500-2,000lbs. The pilots wouldn't have consumed so much fuel over the target unless they had planned for it in advance."

Regarding the liberties lost due to the Patriot Act, people don't have to be sent to jail for their rights to be violated. According to the 4th Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Or does the Constitution mean anything to you?

[Herb Schaffler]

Are these sources good enough for you, nohil-billy?

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."

-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"

-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "

-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."

-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."

-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."

-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry

That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency

-- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings

[Herb Schaffler]

"What this has been all about Herb is that you are willing to dredge up a 41 year old incident and make bogus accusations against a loyal ally, citing questionable sources, to justify the anti-semitic ramblings of the closest associates of your boy Barack Obama."

This has nothing to do with Obama. Why do you think everything I post is about Obama?

If anybody should be ashamed of themselves, it's you, nohil-billy. You prefer to take the word of our so-called "ally" over our servicemen. In effect, you are calling them liars. I bet you're the type who likes to say they support our troops, but when it comes time to support them, you call them liars.

[nohil-billy]

1. "The author of the book was the Officer On Deck. He saw the 6 x 9 flag flying at full profile and it was a clear day. He believed that if he could see the faces of the pilots, they could have surely been able to make out the flag and that it was American."

This is where we run into trouble Herb and why I ask you to be objective. The Israelis had said that they showed the Liberty doing 28 to 30 Knots. The United States Navy pointed out that the USS Liberty was only capable of 17 knots and at the time of the attack was only doing 5 knots. The weather was reported as calm during the attack which means the flag, especially a 6' x 9', would have been fouled. (Laying limp against the mast) Which was it?

As I've said before, I was a Signalman on a destroyer escort which travel 95% of the time at 5 knots because we towed an anti-submarine device. Our underway ensign would often get tangled in the halyards when we were at 5 knots. By the way, 6' x 9' is an extremely large flag for that size ship.

2. "But a bankruptcy judge who was never there, never a part of the investigation and and who has been condemned by the very limited number of Liberty crew he sought information and who deny "his version" of he claims does not make this a reliable resource. You want the truth, read Jim Ennnes' book, "Assault on the Liberty". He was there and no one has ever called his book disingenuous or fabricated."

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."

-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby (NOT THERE)

"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."

-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek (NOT THERE) in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."

-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry (NOT THERE)


"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"

-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson (NOT THERE)

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "

-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk (NOT THERE)

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."

-- CIA Director Richard Helms (NOT THERE)

and neither was reknowned book reviewer for Amazon, William Heimiller!!!

Can't have it both ways Herb.

3. The US Navy acknowledged that they had sent a message the night before ordering the Liberty to relocate 100 miles away. The message was never received by the Liberty but the Israelis were informed that we had no ships in the area.

As stated in many of the articles Herb, there was a lot of miscommunications and he said, they said going on. It's almost impossible to get anybody in the military or in government to admit a mistake.


Just a reminder Herb. I believe it was during the first gulf war that a US Naval vessel accidentally shot down an Iranian Airbus passenger airplane which it mistook for a fighter coming in for a bombing run. Can anyone really mistake an Airbus for a MIG???


The reason I know that you have an agenda is that I've been posting with you long enough, and have watched you change from anti-Hillary to pro-Obama and I've noticed that Obama gets a free pass from you on things you would have pounded Hillary for. When I mentioned the anti-semitism coming from the Obama camp and stated that the Israelis were a loyal and trusted ally, you dredged up the Liberty incident.

On this issue you have thrown out all objectivity. You are old enough and intelligent enough to know, and any cop will tell you this, that most victims of traumatic experiences whether they be crimes or accidents, remember very little about what happened. Another problem is that after the incident, they tend to have more witnesses than actually saw the accident, which clearly happened here. And yes Herb, unfortunately, some people will lie. Some to back up the stories of the others, some to avenge the deaths and injuries to their shipmates, and some just to feel included. (A survey taken in Boston revealed that over 100,000 people claim to have been at the ball game the day Roger Clemens struck out 21 batters)

No Herb, I don't prefer to take the word of our ally over that of our own sailors. I just prefer to remain objective and keep an open mind. I'm a Navy veteran, have supported Soldier ride, the USO, Rusty Humphries Vietnam Veterans Memorial expansion, I give generously on Poppy Day, and am a member of the American Legion.

But I do remember my days in the service and know what goes on behind the scenes. I remember the accidental bombing of the Ocean Going Tug by a naval pilot which I mentioned earlier, the accidental bombing of a desert town by the air force, the downing of the Iranian Airbus, and the mysterious missile trails that were spotted by several persons before an airliner crashed into the Atlantic off the coast of New York. (There were naval maneuvers going on in the area at the time)

One thing I do know for sure Herb, is that when your ally is in the middle of a war with three different countries, and you tell them you have no ships in the area, you d*mned well better not have any ships in the area.