No Atheists During Election Cycle

[Herb Schaffler]

"In God We Trust on currency - Ironically, the American government at the time that In God We Trust was placed on money was only trying to (as you said of disgruntled secularists)make a point. We were trying to prove that we weren't like the godless Soviets, and one of the ways we did that was by putting the phrase on our currency, another way was by putting "...under God" in our pledge to the flag, instead of "One nation, indivisible" as it was originally written, and as I say it."

What you say about "under God" in the pledge is correct. It was placed there in a patriotic ferver to separate us from the Soviets, however, "In God We Trust" did appear on coins prior to that time, but not on our original coins which had "epluribus unum" which means "in all, one".

Our Founding Fathers for the most part were deists. Only 17% of Americans went to church before the 2nd Great Awakening which happened in 1799. Benjamin Franklin was a deist, which means he believed in one God as a creator, but not in any particular religion. George Washington went to the Anglican church, but he refused to take Communion. When people asked him what his beliefs were regarding religion, he gave them the silent treatment, refused to answer. John Adams became a Unitarian later in life. He and Thomas Jefferson were good friends and in their correspondence were very antagonistic towards organized religion. Thomas Jefferson was also a deist. James Madison, the Father of our Constitution was also a champion of the concept of separation of church and state. He also wrote in a correspondence about a hedge between church and state. He believed that paid Congressional chaplains and even chaplains in the military were a violation of church and state separation. He greatly regretted later in life that he ever proclaimed days of prayer while he was President.

[DavidYeah]

They actually came here because they were persecuted in England. The Church of England was the established church in England. Unfortunately, when the Puritans gained power in Massachusetts, they persecuted others.

You're right, but your fact comes after mine. They tried to get the Church of England to conform to their fundamentalist Protestant point of view. After years of this, the Church of England began a pushback that resulted in the prosecutions you speak of.

[lenahan]

I am a deist. but it sickens me that the dems pull out their "religion" every campaign. Admit it. they don't really believe in god, they are trying to gain votes. just tell the truth. And the Dems who say they are for freedom of religion: they aren't. they will fight to have taxpayer dollars pay for Muslim foot baths in state schools, but when a Christian kid prays before a test, and the teacher screams at him, or takes his tests and give him a zero, and he tells the school and (in the rare case) the teacher is censured, the local dems will gi nuts and try to bring an end to school prayer in an effort to encourage what they call freedom of religion (= all but Christians are OK). When John Edwards campaign insulted Catholics and Christians in general (which I took as personal. i was baptized Catholic) they were not fired on the spot. They left weeks later. Had they used that language about Jews or Islams; they are racists. And they would be. But the dems aren't racist, it's ok if u hate Christians, at least if u are a Dem. (Robert Byrd?)

[DavidYeah]

lenahan: I cannot admit a belief or a lack of belief in god for someone else. It isn't a matter of me telling the truth, it is a matter of simply being incapable of reading their minds. I'll leave that to you, you seem to be pretty good at it.

The foot baths were built because of sanitary reasons- the Muslims were compelled by their faith to wash their feet, and to prevent them from sticking their feet in the bathroom sinks, lower foot baths were provided. Or maybe you want your kid to have feet all over a device meant to clean their hands..

I've never once heard of Christians being scolded for voluntary prayer. I'm sure there's more than a few prayers going on come exam time. What liberals and progressives don't want to see is the class instructor leading the class in Christian prayer, forcing my kids, jewish kids, and muslim kids to take time to recognize a faith that is not theirs. That is true freedom of religion. If a teacher has scolded a kid or given him or a her a zero because he or she is a Christian, that sounds like something the ACLU would take up in a heartbeat, not to mention a few good lawyers.

As for the John Edwards thing.. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I wouldn't say I "hate" christians. I simply think movement evangelical fundamentalist conservatism is giving the religion a bad name by pushing its way into governance and enacting failed "faith based" policies that have no place outside of religion classrooms. I know a lot of good liberal/progressive Christians.

[lenahan]

Originally Posted by DavidYeah

lenahan: I cannot admit a belief or a lack of belief in god for someone else. It isn't a matter of me telling the truth, it is a matter of simply being incapable of reading their minds. I'll leave that to you, you seem to be pretty good at it.

The foot baths were built because of sanitary reasons- the Muslims were compelled by their faith to wash their feet, and to prevent them from sticking their feet in the bathroom sinks, lower foot baths were provided. Or maybe you want your kid to have feet all over a device meant to clean their hands..

I've never once heard of Christians being scolded for voluntary prayer. I'm sure there's more than a few prayers going on come exam time. What liberals and progressives don't want to see is the class instructor leading the class in Christian prayer, forcing my kids, jewish kids, and muslim kids to take time to recognize a faith that is not theirs. That is true freedom of religion. If a teacher has scolded a kid or given him or a her a zero because he or she is a Christian, that sounds like something the ACLU would take up in a heartbeat, not to mention a few good lawyers.

As for the John Edwards thing.. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I wouldn't say I "hate" christians. I simply think movement evangelical fundamentalist conservatism is giving the religion a bad name by pushing its way into governance and enacting failed "faith based" policies that have no place outside of religion classrooms. I know a lot of good liberal/progressive Christians.

A) i have hear first hand accounts of students being scolded for praying before tests.

B) the footbaths. The ACLU was against an OPTIONAL bible class, but supported the use of taxpayer dollars to pay for Muslim prayer/religious supplies in a PUBLIC school.

C) John Edwards had 2 women, who, on a blog, insulted the pope, catholics, and said to the effect, what if Mary had taken the morning after pill after god filled her with his hot, steamy, holy spirit. The were fired like 3 weeks later, not 2 seconds later.

[DavidYeah]

A) Hearsay.

B) Again, I see the footbaths as a cleanliness issue and even a safety issue. And as per the ACLU: the footbaths are not styled in any particular religious manner, and can serve other purposes. That is the exact opposite of a Bible course, which uses tax dollars to formally teach a specific religion. I'd object to, say, kneeling rugs or Korans being provided to muslim students just as much as I'd be against bible classes or kneeling benches. I'll take this opportunity to again say that independent religious expression is fine by me, as long as it is not sanctioned by the school district itself.

C) Sounds like a case of a bad apple, and now that I've looked into it, it wasn't part of a John Edwards campaign, it was their vile independent writings done prior to joining the campaign and apart from the campaign that provoked criticism from the Catholics. Perhaps John Edwards should have fired her or better distanced himself from their points of view, but you've mis-characterized it as though John Edwards himself was making the statements, an insinuation you have not provided any proof of other than your own personal bias. And for the record, which I'm sure you're going to dismiss, as you've already determined that all Democrats all hate Christians or something like that, Edwards said the comments “personally offended" him. But he's a democrat so he must be lying, right?

[PeroW-Cheney]

Originally Posted by DavidYeah

I'm an athiest.. are you saying I have no power because I don't believe in your god? What about people who aren't Christians?

No. I'm not saying that. God could give me less power than an atheist or non-christian. If you are an atheist, are you saying that you get no power from god therefore your power comes from your government? If so, I would disagree with that and say government gets power from me (christian) and you (atheist), not the other way around. If that is not what you are saying, then I don't understand where you believe your power comes from.

"One Nation Under God" does not offend me, but I think "One Nation Under the Individual" is perfectly equivalent or better. I think a reasonably humble person hears One Nation Under God and gets the impression that the nation is between himself and God because any one person is less in number than a whole nation full of people.

The United States is a creation of man, not a creation of God. There's no biblical scripture I ever heard of that says God created America, yet as an individual I would hope and do believe that God's hand is protecting the country.

[lenahan]

Originally Posted by DavidYeah

A) Hearsay.

B) Again, I see the footbaths as a cleanliness issue and even a safety issue. And as per the ACLU: the footbaths are not styled in any particular religious manner, and can serve other purposes. That is the exact opposite of a Bible course, which uses tax dollars to formally teach a specific religion. I'd object to, say, kneeling rugs or Korans being provided to muslim students just as much as I'd be against bible classes or kneeling benches. I'll take this opportunity to again say that independent religious expression is fine by me, as long as it is not sanctioned by the school district itself.

C) Sounds like a case of a bad apple, and now that I've looked into it, it wasn't part of a John Edwards campaign, it was their vile independent writings done prior to joining the campaign and apart from the campaign that provoked criticism from the Catholics. Perhaps John Edwards should have fired her or better distanced himself from their points of view, but you've mis-characterized it as though John Edwards himself was making the statements, an insinuation you have not provided any proof of other than your own personal bias. And for the record, which I'm sure you're going to dismiss, as you've already determined that all Democrats all hate Christians or something like that, Edwards said the comments “personally offended" him. But he's a democrat so he must be lying, right?

well, the footbaths are a religious thing. no, i dont think all the dems hate christians. but u would have to be a total idiot to imply that their aren't anti-religion dems. And, i know not all dems hate christians. JFK? Catholic. and i dont know what Jon Edwards really believes, but he should have fired him as soon as he heard. If i were him, i would have fired them if they said something half that vile about anyone.

[nohil-billy]

Herb, David, it's not that I'm open minded, it's that you two are seeing problems where they don't exist. In a society as diverse as ours, you're going to have a fair share of bigots regardless of the topic, Gay bashers, black haters, etc... yet for the most part, people don't care and are not preoccupied with what you think.

When you break it down as you do above, what you are doing is trying to show how you are right and 90% of the population is wrong. That's where the problems arise. If we want to delve into the constitution, let's go to the second amendment. What exactly is a well regulated militia and does that actually translate into the right of individual citizens to bear arms? I don't know, but the people of the United States have always owned fire arms and therefore I believe that the anti-gun zealots are just trying to rock the boat.

I believe that there is probably a God and maybe many Gods. I have no use for religion and believe that most religious leaders are merely politicians in their own right trying to accomplish what politicians try to accomplish. (Broad base, many contributions!!) Yet I don't shudder every time I pass one of the churches in my town nor do I object to the presidents faith based initiatives. Let them believe what they want to believe and I'll go on believing what I want to believe. It's a beautiful thing.

If you want to get into the tax thing, ask yourself how many professional ball games you have been to at stadiums built with taxpayer dollars? How much of your paycheck disappears in order to support the irresponsible behavior of others? I attended Catholic school as a child and have no children of my own so why am I paying taxes for public education?

I know that I'm rambling now but what I'm trying to say is live your life, believe what you want to believe and let everybody else do the same. When you attack what the majority wants, likes or makes them feel comfortable, then of course they're going to reply with anger and hatred, and to what end? Are you happy that you got the cross removed? Does it make your life easier? Make you richer?

Live and let live fella's.

[Herb Schaffler]

I believe in freedom of religion. It is not a matter of what the majority believes. If only one person believes differently about religion than everybody else, his or her religious or non-religious views should be respected. This country is a constitutional republic, not a pure democracy. In the Federalist Papers, Alexander Hamilton wrote against the tyranny of the majority. This country was founded on the principles of individualism, not majoritarianism. If people want to build a cross on a hill, I have no objection to it, only if they use governmental taxes to build it or if the government supports it. The government should not be entangled with religion.

I have always been opposed to taxes being used to build and support stadiums. Stadiums are the responsibility of the owners.

As a libertarian, I believe in private schools. Poor families could have their schools supported by philanthropic doners and other charitable contributions.

I believe liberals have an overly narrow interpretation of the 2nd Amendment just as conservatives have an overly narrow interpretation of the 1st Amendment. The citizens have a right to form a militia as a further check against oppressive government power. I believe people also have a right to guns for self-defense and also for hunting. I believe even if the Founders only intended the 2nd Amendment as a provision for the National Guard, (which I don't believe to be the case) you could say that we have a right to guns within our unenumerated rights. The 9th Amendment states that rights don't have to be enumerated for us to have them. A good rule of thumb for determining those unenumerated rights is that we should be able to live our lives as we choose as long as we don't use force or fraud against others.

People sometimes mistake a belief in the separation of church and state as having an animosity to religion. That's not necessarily the case. I have no objection to people worshipping or believing the way they do. It's only when they turn to the government to coerce their beliefs on others that I'm opposed to. Did you know that the president of "Americans United For Separation of Church and State" is a Baptist minister? The principle of separation of church and state is what has allowed religion to flourish in America because it has allowed for competition among the churches and religions. Religion is stagnating in countries with established churches because of a lack of competition. Competition works in every endeavor. It has brought about a vibrant economy in this country. A voucher system (which is one area that I disagree with other church/state separationists) in our school system would create competition and thus better schools. Competition in medicine is the solution to our problems with our health care system. Competition, private property, the profit motive, individual rights are the things that have made this country great. Let's not let people like Hillary take these things away from us in her drive for collectivism.