Hillary Clinton Enjoys 100% Rating On Abortion From Planned Parenthood

[Corvair]

I appreciate what you say, Nohil-billy. I would like to answer Dug, though. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's sincere. Naive and in denial, maybe, but sincere nonetheless.

Dug, not a single thing you say holds up to scrutiny. I knew you were alluding to Iraq, but I wanted to see you trip and fall face-first on your specious argument.

While the leader and government [of Iraq] was not a good example they posed no real threat to the civilized world. Sadly the invasion by US and allied troops killed between 150,000 and 600,000 innocent civilians.

The fact that your death toll ranges from 150,000 to 600,000 shows you have no idea how many innocent people have been killed. And what do you mean Hussein wasn't a threat to the civilized world? Of course Hussein was a threat to the civilized world. He harbored terrorists and sponsored terrorists. Recall how he used to lob Scud missiles into Israel; how he invaded Kuwait; how he liked to gas his own constituents and the citizens of Iran back in the 1980s. That gas, by the way was a weapon of mass destruction that liberals would like you to believe he didn't have. I, for one, believe he had them. (After all, he used them, didn't he?) The 17 United Nations resolutions required him to get rid of the WMDs, and to account for how he got rid of them. He did neither. He thumbed his nose all the way through that 17th resolution, until G.W. Bush said there's not going to be an 18th meaningless resolution.

You may recall, also, that "regime change" was the official policy of the Clinton Puppet Show. Typically for Clinton, he talked and talked and talked about it, but did nothing - except to drop the occasional "precision strike" missile into an aspirin factory.

Recently one of the planners of the invasion made a public statement confirming what many people suspected all along that the invasion was actually to secure oil supplies not to free the people of Iraq.

You don't say who this alleged "planner" was, but I'm going to guess you're referring to Alan Greenspan and the out-of-context quote from his new book. It seems as though you listen with one ear for something that sounds like what you want to hear, and you run with it, not caring to hear any follow-up. Greenspan was very quick to set the record straight:

"...he clarified that sentence in his 531-page book, saying that while securing global oil supplies was "not the administration's motive," he had presented the White House with the case for why removing Hussein was important for the global economy. "I was not saying that that's the administration's motive," Greenspan said in an interview Saturday, "I'm just saying that if somebody asked me, 'Are we fortunate in taking out Saddam?' I would say it was essential."

Sorry to burst your bubble, Dug. Well.....................no, I'm not.

An embryo is not a thinking human in my opinion I would say 3 months would be a good safe cutoff for medical abortion but I think the killing of living humans is what really should be discouraged.

Weren't we all embryos and zygotes at one point or another? Yes, we were. If our moms had had miscarriages, that would have been involuntary, not a choice. There's a big difference. My mom made a conscious choice not to have me flushed down the toilet and I'm glad. My mom had a miscarriage when I was ten. She was devastated. It was not her choice. She did not decide to have an "abortion."

Miscarriage IS an abortion the Fetus is Aborted. Induced or spontaneous an abortion is an abortion.

If a man dies of a heart attack, has someone murdered him? Did he commit suicide? It would be one or the other, by your logic. Earth to Dug: There's a world of difference between an involuntary medical event and something done deliberately.

Setting yourself up as an executioner also causes me problems. "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", would seem to be the biblical caution here. Obviously Jesus was not a fan of capitol punishment.

Book of Numbers 35: 16-19 - If a man strikes another with an iron instrument and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. If a man strikes another with a death-dealing stone in his hand and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. If a man strikes another with a death-dealing club in his hand and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. The avenger of blood may execute the murderer, putting him to death on sight.

And Dug, if you're getting hung up on the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill, the proper interpretation is Thou Shalt Not Murder. Please refer to Deuteronomy 19. Ecclesiastes is also instructive when the discussion turns to war.

Are you perhaps an American?

Yes, native-born. What kind of question is that?

[Dug]

Originally Posted by nohil-billy

Ann Coulter wrote a book, "How To Talk To A Liberal," with a very interesting disclaimer included in the title. "If You Must"

The disclaimer was intended for those who feel compelled to joust idealogically with the likes of Dug. If you send Dug a coloring book with the "big" box of crayons, I guarantee that he would send it back with all of the pictures colored in different shades of gray.

Don't let him frustrate you with his ability to stray from one subject to another, or giving incoherent answers stating opinion as fact. This is by design. Liberal design!

Somebody stated in an earlier post that the mantra of liberalism is; "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth." Well here's another mantra of liberalism; "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with Bullsh*t." Liberals are masters of both.

Funny when you run out of logical arguments you run for the shelter of denial. May I point out the only reason you are frustrated is because you cannot cope with logical reasonable argument. Like most conservatives they rely on "God said it" or "That is what I believe" as an argument.

I always am careful to state my opinions as my opinions and simple facts are self evident. If you have proof of any deception I have made in my posts please I would love to here them. Some people seem to want freedom of speech and expression for people who think like themselves but don't want to discuss matters with those who disagree. Look at it this way Here I am giving you a chance to convert a pro abortionist you CAN argue the point with me and if you can come up with a good argument then I will change my stance.


Ignore me if you like it just proves my argument that early term abortion should be a choice for individuals, free, and medically supervised.

I have not heard any convincing arguments against this.

[Corvair]

Originally Posted by Dug

...Ignore me if you like it just proves my argument that early term abortion should be a choice for individuals, free, and medically supervised.

1. You are not being ignored (see above).
2. You have come up considerably short of "proving" your argument.
3. Proper use of punctuation usually makes one's point more clear.

[Dug]

Originally Posted by Corvair

1. You are not being ignored (see above).
2. You have come up considerably short of "proving" your argument.
3. Proper use of punctuation usually makes one's point more clear.

Fine it was just that someone suggested that my arguments be ignored.

As for my arguments I only ask that the law allows people the freedom of choice.

I have just been reading my Bible and find that god is actually pro abortion. So much for the holy rights of the unborn!

Hosea 13:16 - "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

God commanded this, it is in the bible, so it must OK for Christians to kill the unborn.

[nohil-billy]

There is an infinite number of illogical arguments as proven by your many postings in this thread Dug. It is not possible to have a logical, reasonable debate with someone who believes that a miscarriage and an abortion are the same thing because they come to the same conclusion.

Nor is it logical to say that a doctor amputating your leg because of a sore knee is the same as it being severed in a car accident though it is interesting to note that you added the words "for a valid medical reason" to try to make your argument work.

You say conservatives run for the shelter of denial but all I've seen from the anti-abortion posters are their opinions based on common sense, responsibility or faith. Nobody but you has started out talking about abortion and segued to capital punishment and the war in Iraq.

You are entitled to your opinions Dug, and I at no time suggested that you be ignored. I just wanted to point out that you actually use very little logic when presenting the pro abortion side and therefore it is probably useless to try and have a serious dialog with you.

Convert you Dug? You use every trick in the book to convince yourself that abortion is right.

[Dug]

Originally Posted by nohil-billy

There is an infinite number of illogical arguments as proven by your many postings in this thread Dug. It is not possible to have a logical, reasonable debate with someone who believes that a miscarriage and an abortion are the same thing because they come to the same conclusion.

Nor is it logical to say that a doctor amputating your leg because of a sore knee is the same as it being severed in a car accident though it is interesting to note that you added the words "for a valid medical reason" to try to make your argument work.

You say conservatives run for the shelter of denial but all I've seen from the anti-abortion posters are their opinions based on common sense, responsibility or faith. Nobody but you has started out talking about abortion and segued to capital punishment and the war in Iraq.

You are entitled to your opinions Dug, and I at no time suggested that you be ignored. I just wanted to point out that you actually use very little logic when presenting the pro abortion side and therefore it is probably useless to try and have a serious dialog with you.

Convert you Dug? You use every trick in the book to convince yourself that abortion is right.

I only use the reference "miscarriage and an abortion are the same thing" because they are. I would suggest you obtain some small amount of knowledge on this subject before dismissing my statement. Contact any medical practitioner and ask what the correct medical term for a miscarriage is.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
mis·car·riage (m?s'k?r'?j, m?s-k?r'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
The premature expulsion of a nonviable fetus from the uterus. Also called spontaneous abortion.

[LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This No Hillary For President Forum Link.

What is a miscarriage?

A miscarriage (spontaneous abortion) is any pregnancy that ends spontaneously before the fetus can survive. The World Health Organization defines this unsurvivable state as an embryo or fetus weighing 500 grams or less, which typically corresponds to a fetal age (gestational age) of 20 to 22 weeks or less. Miscarriage occurs in about 15-20% of all recognized pregnancies, and usually occurs before the 13th week of pregnancy. The actual percentage of miscarriages is estimated to be as high as 50% of all pregnancies, since many miscarriages occur without the woman ever having known she was pregnant. Of those miscarriages that occur before the eighth week, 30% have no fetus associated with the sac or placenta. This condition is called blighted ovum, and many women are surprised to learn that there was never an embryo inside the sac.

Some miscarriages occur before women recognize that they are pregnant. About 15% of fertilized eggs are lost before the egg even has a chance to implant (embed itself) in the wall of the uterus. A woman would not generally identify this type of miscarriage. Another 15% of conceptions are lost before eight weeks' gestation. Once fetal heart function is detected in a given pregnancy, the chance of miscarriage is less than 5%.

A woman who may be showing the signs of a possible miscarriage (such as vaginal bleeding) may hear the term "threatened abortion" used to describe her situation.

If I have a valid medical reason to have my leg removed because my knee is sore than I would expect that a doctor would be legally and morally allowed to remove my leg. The soreness may be caused by any number of underlying diseases or reasons. People have sore legs amputated by doctors every day.

This is an emotional subject and all I am saying is that people should be allowed their freedom to make their own decisions that are backed by the recommendations of a licensed medical practitioner. If my knee threatened my life or well being then I would expect a doctor to remove it for me.

To me if a licensed doctor recommends an abortion then the matter should be one that is solely between the doctor and the patient. The state should not intervene in these matters.

What is your problem with the logic of that argument?

[nohil-billy]

Dug, your last post is exactly what I'm talking about. You are not interested in presenting your case, only in scoring points, and again you do it rather lamely. Even with your vast knowledge on this subject, you seem incapable of differentiating between bodily funtions such as; premature expulsion, spontaneous abortion, or threatened abortion and the acts of surgical or chemical abortion performed by a third party.

When you take the case of the sore knee, you can easily see what I'm talking about. But only if you want to. I never mention a valid medical reason for amputating the leg. Only you do that to make the connection that having a leg amputated surgically brings you to the same conclusion as having it severed in a car accident, just like you make the case that miscarriage and abortion bring you to the same conclusion.

But lets say that you just suffer chronic soreness in the knee and your tired of dealing with it. Do you think you could find a doctor to remove a perfectly good leg for you so you no longer had to deal with the soreness? Or let's say your doctor says you simply have arthritis but offers to remove the leg so you don't have to deal with it. Would you let him.

You see Dug, I think we can agree that there is very little choice when the leg is severed during an accident or when a woman miscarries, yet when given the option of removing your leg to relieve the soreness, you set conditions. Conditions which are conveniently absent when you talk about a viable fetus.

[Corvair]

"Hosea 13:16 - "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

God commanded this, it is in the bible, so it must OK for Christians to kill the unborn."

Dug, you have made an absurd interpretation of this Bible passage. This verse is a prophesy, or a prediction from the prophet Hosea, of what would befall these people for turning away from God. It is not God's permission to perform abortions. You should have been able to understand that from reading the passage itself.

Please stop looking to the Bible for a rationale for abortion. You won't find it because it is not there.

[Dug]

Originally Posted by Corvair

I appreciate what you say, Nohil-billy. I would like to answer Dug, though. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's sincere. Naive and in denial, maybe, but sincere nonetheless.

Dug, not a single thing you say holds up to scrutiny. I knew you were alluding to Iraq, but I wanted to see you trip and fall face-first on your specious argument.


The fact that your death toll ranges from 150,000 to 600,000 shows you have no idea how many innocent people have been killed. And what do you mean Hussein wasn't a threat to the civilized world? Of course Hussein was a threat to the civilized world. He harbored terrorists and sponsored terrorists. Recall how he used to lob Scud missiles into Israel; how he invaded Kuwait; how he liked to gas his own constituents and the citizens of Iran back in the 1980s. That gas, by the way was a weapon of mass destruction that liberals would like you to believe he didn't have. I, for one, believe he had them. (After all, he used them, didn't he?) The 17 United Nations resolutions required him to get rid of the WMDs, and to account for how he got rid of them. He did neither. He thumbed his nose all the way through that 17th resolution, until G.W. Bush said there's not going to be an 18th meaningless resolution.

You may recall, also, that "regime change" was the official policy of the Clinton Puppet Show. Typically for Clinton, he talked and talked and talked about it, but did nothing - except to drop the occasional "precision strike" missile into an aspirin factory.


You don't say who this alleged "planner" was, but I'm going to guess you're referring to Alan Greenspan and the out-of-context quote from his new book. It seems as though you listen with one ear for something that sounds like what you want to hear, and you run with it, not caring to hear any follow-up. Greenspan was very quick to set the record straight:

"...he clarified that sentence in his 531-page book, saying that while securing global oil supplies was "not the administration's motive," he had presented the White House with the case for why removing Hussein was important for the global economy. "I was not saying that that's the administration's motive," Greenspan said in an interview Saturday, "I'm just saying that if somebody asked me, 'Are we fortunate in taking out Saddam?' I would say it was essential."

Sorry to burst your bubble, Dug. Well.....................no, I'm not.

Weren't we all embryos and zygotes at one point or another? Yes, we were. If our moms had had miscarriages, that would have been involuntary, not a choice. There's a big difference. My mom made a conscious choice not to have me flushed down the toilet and I'm glad. My mom had a miscarriage when I was ten. She was devastated. It was not her choice. She did not decide to have an "abortion."

If a man dies of a heart attack, has someone murdered him? Did he commit suicide? It would be one or the other, by your logic. Earth to Dug: There's a world of difference between an involuntary medical event and something done deliberately.

Book of Numbers 35: 16-19 - If a man strikes another with an iron instrument and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. If a man strikes another with a death-dealing stone in his hand and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. If a man strikes another with a death-dealing club in his hand and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death. The avenger of blood may execute the murderer, putting him to death on sight.

And Dug, if you're getting hung up on the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill, the proper interpretation is Thou Shalt Not Murder. Please refer to Deuteronomy 19. Ecclesiastes is also instructive when the discussion turns to war.


Yes, native-born. What kind of question is that?

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Dear Corvair


Starting from the bottom and working up :
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I was not sure what country you lived in or where your from originally.

So I was just checking it is called asking a question. Not all the world lives in America though some Americans seem to think so. You may or may not be interested to find out where I live and where I was born.
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It is not my fault that the bible is not an accurate document. Anyway we are talking about laws not religion or personal religious beliefs. The last time I checked the American constitution upheld the right to freedom of religion

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So religious beliefs in America are a free and personal choice belief in the bible or one set of religious beliefs is not an argument in a free society.
commit
Anyway as stated previously your God is apparently pro abortion as = nowhere in the bible does it say "Tho shalt not commit abortion, but it does say it is OK to kill the unborn and to kill innocent children in many passages.

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Induced or spontaneous abortions are sad events. But they happen, why put the lives of women at risk and make a difficult process a criminal act?
Why strive to bring unwanted children into an overpopulated world? If a doctor says a woman requires an abortion then it is a matter for that doctor and that woman not for any state or religion to stick it's nose in. As simple as that. Religion has no problem with the killing of the innocent why do you guys seem to want to go against your own Biblical teachings?
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You own criminal justice system does not follow strict biblical teaching otherwise you would have a state like Iran and Saudi Arabia where religious laws are enforced. Are you suggesting America should copy their legal system and bring in a pure form of religious laws, courts and executions for things like Adultery? (Have you ever eaten shrimp or pork or slept with your wife while she was menstruating? If you have you have then by Biblical laws sinned against god and should be punished)

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Yes in hindsight Greenspan says "well it may or may not have been the motive but it sure as hell was convenient"

We got rid of that pesky Saddam Hussein anyway After all he was destabilizing the US economy by refusing to sell oil for US dollars and he would only trade in Euros. Hussein was never a pleasant fellow and yes the world is far better of with out people like him but you look at who supported him and who armed him? US money put him in power and kept him in power for many years. ONLY when he threatened US oil supplies did he become a threat rather than an ally of the US.
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Do you have an accurate death toll figure for the Iraq invasion? I would love to know.

Estimates from various sources put the figure between 150,000 to 600,000 but yes I have no idea as to exactly how many innocent people have been killed. NO ONE DOES! All I know is that if the number is the most conservative and ONLY 150,000 innocent civilians ( and this number is rising fast) have been killed that is far to many for my liking.
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Yes Saddam paid some money to Palestinians and yes this was supporting terrorist groups many governments around the world support varying forms of terror and terrorism the USA included. Are you suggesting that US sponsored governments and death squads have never existed in South America? Or that the US has never supported an armed struggle against a regime it opposed ? Who do you think funded Al Queda in the first place?
The Russians?
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WMD's ???? you suggest Saddam never got rid of his WMD's

How many WMD's did US inspectors find in Iraq after the invasion??????
If inspectors had found one single tiny little WMD then Bush would have shouted from the rooftops they would have said "THIS PROVES WE WERE RIGHT!!!!" but in reality how many did they find after the invasion? 0 none not one nothing zip zero nil. Why did we invade Iraq? to get rid of WMD's
How many WMD's did Saddam have? NONE!

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Saddam never "harbored terrorists " he was terrified of Al Queda and fundamentalists he hunted down and killed any terrorist working in Iraq because he believed they were a direct threat to his government and his leadership.

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And finally Was Saddam a threat to the the Civilized World ? Seriously you believe Saddam and his troops could have invaded both Europe and America and occupied both areas creating an effective world domination? you seriously believe this could have happened unless Iraq was invaded?


Please wake up and get your facts right.

PS I was born in Fiji but I now am a naturalized Australian. Now living in Queensland. I have traveled through Southeast asia and the pacific region.


Without reference to a map or Google ETC can you tell me where Fiji is in the world?
Ie:
What oceans are near it?
Is it southern or northern hemisphere?
What language is spoken there ?

You can do the same for Australia too if you like!

[Dug]

Originally Posted by Corvair

"Hosea 13:16 - "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

God commanded this, it is in the bible, so it must OK for Christians to kill the unborn."

Dug, you have made an absurd interpretation of this Bible passage. This verse is a prophesy, or a prediction from the prophet Hosea, of what would befall these people for turning away from God. It is not God's permission to perform abortions. You should have been able to understand that from reading the passage itself.

Please stop looking to the Bible for a rationale for abortion. You won't find it because it is not there.

Fine I have no problem in ignoring the bible and religion in this discussion. I feel entirely that the bible and religion have no part in this discussion. As long as those who are anti abortion stop using biblical texts and references I will happily stop.


Can you find one specific simple unambiguous bible text prohibiting the medical abortion of a an early term Fetus ?

Please stop looking to the Bible for a rationale for being anti abortion. You won't find it because it is not there