WWE winner per the program!

[Herb Schaffler]

"First of all, we just 'kicked Saddam' back to Iraq after his invasion of Kuwait---I'm still waiting for the 'war crimes' trials of those who raped and killed all those Kuwati civilians!!"

What about war crimes trials for Americans who engaged in the turkey shoot of the Iraqis who were retreating?

"Now back to 'Round 2' with Iraq: All the intelligence from multiple agencies pointed to WMD's, and Saddam had a history of using them. Guess ppl forgot about all the gas masks and chem warfare stuff that was issued to the troops prior to going in!! Now, if Saddam would (and some said 'did') take Al-Qaeda forces into his country and give them safe haven, how many of those forces would it have taken for ppl 'like you' to go in like we did with Afghanistan and continue the war on terror?!!"

Boy, jam, the Bush Administration sure has you fooled!. WMD, harboring al Quaeda, war on terror! All these are excuses to mask our real reason for going in there. Do you think we would have built a $750 million dollar fortress "embassy" is we didn't plan to stay there? If we wanted to, we could negotiate with Sadr in order to have a smooth evacuation out of Iraq, but the US is doing everything it can to pick a fight with Sadr so we can wipe him out so he doesn't win an upcoming election. We need to keep our puppet, Maliki, in there. What is that reason or resons the neocons want to stay there? To have control of the world's oil supply and to protect Israel in their quest to steal more land from the West Bank and southern Lebanon. In other words, we have 4538 soldiers dead, 29,780 injured, 300,000 cases of post-traumatic disorder or major depression, 320,000 brain injuries, 126 suicides per week of veterans, 1.2 million Iraqi dead, 2 million Iraqis fleeing the country, a cost of between 3 and 5 trillion dollars, a tripling of oil and gasoline prices, a loss of value of the dollar, unfunded liabilities of $53 trillion. Thank you George Bush, thank you Dick Cheney, thank you neocons, thank you McCain for wanting to continue this disastrous foreign policy. And for what? To protect Israel in their stealing of land.

[jamwadmag]

Originally Posted by Herb Schaffler

"First of all, we just 'kicked Saddam' back to Iraq after his invasion of Kuwait---I'm still waiting for the 'war crimes' trials of those who raped and killed all those Kuwati civilians!!"

What about war crimes trials for Americans who engaged in the turkey shoot of the Iraqis who were retreating?

"Now back to 'Round 2' with Iraq: All the intelligence from multiple agencies pointed to WMD's, and Saddam had a history of using them. Guess ppl forgot about all the gas masks and chem warfare stuff that was issued to the troops prior to going in!! Now, if Saddam would (and some said 'did') take Al-Qaeda forces into his country and give them safe haven, how many of those forces would it have taken for ppl 'like you' to go in like we did with Afghanistan and continue the war on terror?!!"

Boy, jam, the Bush Administration sure has you fooled!. WMD, harboring al Quaeda, war on terror! All these are excuses to mask our real reason for going in there. Do you think we would have built a $750 million dollar fortress "embassy" is we didn't plan to stay there? If we wanted to, we could negotiate with Sadr in order to have a smooth evacuation out of Iraq, but the US is doing everything it can to pick a fight with Sadr so we can wipe him out so he doesn't win an upcoming election. We need to keep our puppet, Maliki, in there. What is that reason or resons the neocons want to stay there? To have control of the world's oil supply and to protect Israel in their quest to steal more land from the West Bank and southern Lebanon. In other words, we have 4538 soldiers dead, 29,780 injured, 300,000 cases of post-traumatic disorder or major depression, 320,000 brain injuries, 126 suicides per week of veterans, 1.2 million Iraqi dead, 2 million Iraqis fleeing the country, a cost of between 3 and 5 trillion dollars, a tripling of oil and gasoline prices, a loss of value of the dollar, unfunded liabilities of $53 trillion. Thank you George Bush, thank you Dick Cheney, thank you neocons, thank you McCain for wanting to continue this disastrous foreign policy. And for what? To protect Israel in their stealing of land.

You just used the 'N-word' (that's Neocon), which I will gladly wear as a badge of honor, as opposed to the 'S-word', which is just a summary of the Lib position of 'cant we all just get along,"---i.e. 'Suckers!'

Do you want to run a total of the casualties of WWII and go back and re-fight that war too?!

War is Hell, Herb, dont know if anyone ever told you that?! Might want to really rave about the Civil War while you're at it...all the casualties were 'ours!'

With Saddam's attack on helpless Kuwait in 1991, and continued threatening the world community, and Saddam's regime being Suni populated, as is Osama's Al-Qaeda army, the result of letting him continue in his many, many UN violations, torture of civilians, and threats with scuds against Israel; can you 'honestly' say that he would not be a problem today?!!!! Cmon, Herb, you're smarter than that.....

[Herb Schaffler]

"With Saddam's attack on helpless Kuwait in 1991, and continued threatening the world community, and Saddam's regime being Suni populated, as is Osama's Al-Qaeda army, the result of letting him continue in his many, many UN violations, torture of civilians, and threats with scuds against Israel; can you 'honestly' say that he would not be a problem today?!!!! Cmon, Herb, you're smarter than that....."

How is any of that our business? Are we to be the policeman of the world? Where in the Constitution does it say we are? Our Founding Fathers argued against going overseas to find monsters to slay. Why should we send our young people overseas to die and get injured and mentally incapacitated for others? Why should we destroy our economy for others? Give up your war mongering mentality and think for a change.

[nohil-billy]

During the years of the Clinton administration we pretty much let the terrorists have their way with us. (as long as Bill wasn't testifying before a grand jury at the time.) The only war we were involved in was with NATO protecting some Moslems from the Bosnians. I also believe that we were pretty much minding our own business on the morning of 9/11.

Get over your passivist mentality and think for a change.

[Herb Schaffler]

I am thinking, nohil-billy, unlike you. We were/nt minding our business, that's why we were attacked on 9/11. Why do you think they attacked us? They attacked us because we had troops in Saudi Arabia, because of all the children we were killing in Iraq because of our sanctions, and because of our support for Israel. These were the reasons bin Laden gave. I never condone killing innocent civilians, bin Laden was wrong for that, but, expect future acts of terrorism because of our meddling foreign policy.

Clinton was wrong to not apprehend or kill bin Laden when he had a chance. Bush is wrong to be concentrating on Iraq when he should be going after bin Laden. Iraq is in no way winning the war on terrorism, it's creating the potential for more terrorism.

[nohil-billy]

You sound liike a Democratic talking point.

We were in Saudi Arabia by invitation as they did not trust Saddam Hussein. We had sanctions against Iraq for not complying with the UN. We had to maintain a no fly zone to keep Saddam from killing the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south. And like it or not, Israel has always been our ally and always will be, God willing.

We were not acting aggressively toward Iraq and gave them every opportunity to comply peacefully. But it's always our fault, isn't Herb.

[Herb Schaffler]

"You sound liike a Democratic talking point."

Unfortunately, the warmongers have captured the Republican Party. They assume that anybody who is an anti-interventionist must be a Democrat, but conservatives have a long history of being anti-interventionist. Read William Kaufman's new book "Not My America".

"We were in Saudi Arabia by invitation as they did not trust Saddam Hussein. We had sanctions against Iraq for not complying with the UN. We had to maintain a no fly zone to keep Saddam from killing the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south."

None of which was our business unless you believe we have a legitimate purpose in being the policeman of the world which is unconstitutional and results in unecessary loss of lives and permanent injuries of our young servicepeople and wrecks our economy.

"Israel has always been our ally and always will be, God willing."

Tell that to those who lost their lives on the American ship which Israel sunk in 1967.

"We were not acting aggressively toward Iraq and gave them every opportunity to comply peacefully. But it's always our fault, isn't Herb."

nohil-billy, when are you going to learn to distinguish between our country and our government? When our government does wrong, we have a right to speak out against it and I hope we always do.

[nohil-billy]

When Iraq invaded the oil rich country of Kuwait, a coalition of 30 plus countries, including Arab countries, formed a force to beat them back across the border. Kuwait was thankful enough to supply us with all the petroleum needed for the present conflict in Iraq free of charge. Saudi Arabia provided bases and requested we stick around in fear of retalliation. We later had to create No Fly Zones to protect the Iraqi people from their own government. So we freed one country from an invasion and protected the people of two others taking nothing for ourselves and you call us war mongers.

As for the intelligence gathering ship USS Liberty, which was attacked - not sunk, the State Department concluded that it was an act of gross negligence on the part of the Israelis and also faulted the US for failing to tell Israel that the ship was there and failing to get the ship out of a war zone.

In July the National Security Archive released tapes of Israeli pilots and ground control speaking in Hebrew, along with English transcripts. The recordings were made by a nearby American surveillance aircraft after the attack. ([LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This No Hillary For President Forum Link. )
The NSA released the tapes and transcripts under the Freedom of Information Act in response to a request from Judge Jay Cristol of Miami, Florida. Cristol, who wrote a book about the attack, said the tapes show it was a tragic accident in a time of war -- that the Israelis mistook the ship for an Egyptian one.

As for distinguishing between our country and our government Herb, we elect a government to represent our country. In most cases, a majority of Americans decide who will represent us and the rest should shut their pie holes for four years.